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 Post subject: 9 buteliai alaus, ir 10 butelių alaus....
PostPosted: 2007 03 29, 03:32 
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Can someone please explain the following

Prašom duoti 9 butelius alaus
Prašom duoti 10 butelių alaus


why the change?


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PostPosted: 2007 03 29, 08:54 
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but wouldnt it be incorrect to say..

prašom duoti 10 butelius alaus?


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PostPosted: 2007 03 29, 13:13 
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It would be incorrect.

Here are the rules of numbers + things:

1 (vienas) + nominative (vienas butelis)
2-9 (du, trys, keturi, ..., devyni) + nominative plural (du buteliai, trys buteliai...)
10-20 (dešimt, vienuolika, ..., dvidešimt) + genitive plural (dešimt butelių, vienuolika butelių...)
21 same as 1
22-29 same as 2-9
30, 40, 50, 60, 70, 80, 90, 100, 1000, etc + genitive plural (trisdešimt butelių, keturiasdešimt butelių)


Ascii, I seriously don't understand what you said :).


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PostPosted: 2007 03 29, 18:45 
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alright, well that seems to clear it up a bit. But what about when using verbs..

Prašom duoti vienas butelis?

no right?
How do i know which to use,ko,kas, ką


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 2007 03 29, 21:43 
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duoti always + ką (acc.) (if direct object)

Prašom duoti vieną butelį (acc.),
du butelius (acc.),
tris butelius (acc.)...
devynis butelius (acc.),
dešimt butelių,
vienuolika butelių,
šimtą butelių,
etc.


Last edited by Pigmalijonas on 2007 04 06, 15:01, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Speaking of genitives after verbs
PostPosted: 2007 04 03, 06:20 

Joined: 2007 03 14, 19:46
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Location: Annandale, VA - USA
OK, how about this sentence I recently read: Aš noriu būti gydytoju. Why isn't the verb "to be" here followed by the nominative, gydytojas? Perhaps it is incorrect?

John Peters


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 2007 04 03, 08:03 
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Hello,

It is right, I want to be a doctor - aš noriu būti gydytoju (m), gydytoja (f);

to be - infinitive -> būti;

Do you know that we declines nouns ( and not only), so here you met one case of it, that is called "instrumental case" or in lithuanian įnagininko linksnis, that answers to the question kuo?

Aš noriu būti ...kuo? - gydytoju. (in english this sound the same - what - kas? and what?- kuo? like with whom, just without with).

Sample of declension:

Nom. kas? gydytojas (Aš esu geras gydytojas - i am a good doctor)
Gen. ko? gydytojo (Man reikia gydytojo - I need a doctor)
Dat. kam? gydytojui (This present is for the doctor)
Acc. ką? gydytoją (Aš myliu gydytoją - i love the doctor)
Instr. kuo? gydytoju (Aš žaviuosi gydytoju - I admire doctor)
Loc. kur? gydytojuje (Problema paciente, o ne gydytojuje - the problem is in patient, not in a doctor).
Voc! gydytojau! - oh doctor!


If you need direct grammar rules, I will tell you, or someone else will tell you.


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 Post subject: 9 buteliai alaus, ir 10 buteliai alaus....
PostPosted: 2007 04 03, 15:17 

Joined: 2007 03 14, 19:46
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Location: Annandale, VA - USA
Oh, my, this is even more confusing to my aged brain.

Thank you for the clear explanation of the declension forms, but my basic question remains the same: why does not the verb būti (to be) take the nominative case here? If I were to say in Lithuanian: "He is a doctor", wouldn't it be "Jis yra gydytojas" rather than "Jis yra gydytoju"?

And I could see an argument for using the genitive plural on the grounds that the speaker wants to be "[one of many] doctors", but how is becoming a doctor "instrumental" to the speaker?

So, what rules govern when to use the instrumental rather than the nominative after "būti"?

Thank you.

John Peters


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 Post subject: 9 buteliai alaus, ir 10 buteliai alaus....
PostPosted: 2007 04 03, 16:09 

Joined: 2007 03 14, 19:46
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Location: Annandale, VA - USA
As I review the examples you give for the declension, I find more confusion, now about the use of the instrumental after an apparently transitive verb, "instr. kuo? gydytoju (Aš žaviuosi gydytoju - I admire doctor)". This sentence appears to me to be identical in structure as the one above it illustrating the accusative: "Acc. ką? gydytoją (Aš myliu gydytoją - i love the doctor)".

Both sentences in English (and in Latin) mean that "the doctor" is the object, i.e., accusative, of the two verbs of action (to love or to admire). Doesn't the instrumental mean "with" or "by means of" or "with the help of" something or somebody?

BTW. we seem to be getting farther and farther from bottles of beer here. Maybe, if we are going to continue this exchange, I should start a new topic. What do you think?

John Peters.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 2007 04 04, 09:57 
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Good day John,

Thank you for your notes and remarks (I know I promised to find the rules for this and I didn't forget). :!:
You are not the first one who is asking about this "problem" toward ko? kam? ką? kuo?...
In english both cases sound the same as you noticed...but in lithuanian it is different.

some info:

here is the site where you can find interesting stuff:
http://dmoz.org/World/Lietuvi%C5%B3/Mok ... uvi%C5%B3/

Visit Klaidutis (http://www.klaidutis.lt/) site, there you can make some grammar tests. (NO NEED TO REGISTER)
Rašybos tekstai - to improve your writing skills (insert letters).
Kalbos kultūros - language culture tests (how we have to talk).


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 2007 04 05, 14:47 
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It's just you have to remember that mylėti requires Acc (mylėti ką), while žavėtis requires Instrumental case (žavėtis kuo). :lol:

or.. is there any way to explain this better? how to translate that question word "kuo?" more exactly? what's the difference between the action of loving (i LOVE you- the person of yours is a direct object of my love; the object -YOU- is emphasized) and admiring (i ADMIRE you -the person of yours is an instrument for me to experience the feeling of admiration, the process is emphasized more than the object itself).

Dear God.. what a tough language we have here :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: 9 buteliai alaus, ir 10 buteliai alaus....
PostPosted: 2007 04 05, 14:56 
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jrpeters wrote:
Doesn't the instrumental mean "with" or "by means of" or "with the help of" something or somebody?


John Peters.


well... "with the help of yours i am experiencing a feeling of admiration " :lol: :lol: :lol: i have who to admire, so you are helping me :lol: :lol: i am using you to experience this feeling, so you are my instrument :lol: :P

but naaah, that's too deep :lol: i think its just better to remember which case these words require , not falling into considerations which seem to be way to sophisticated for beginners :roll:


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 Post subject: Re: 9 buteliai alaus, ir 10 buteliai alaus....
PostPosted: 2007 04 05, 15:20 

Joined: 2007 03 14, 19:46
Posts: 27
Location: Annandale, VA - USA
Well, tYnka, just as I was about to (ummm, try THAT in Lithuanian) despair once again of the rules of this, my ancestral tongue, I am relieved to learn that there really aren't any rules :roll:, just exceptions.

In a strange way, this beginner admires the complexity of it all.

The "transitive" verbs you use to illustrate the different emphasis on object versus process is neat 8) , but when the "rules" say that the verb "būti" (at least the infinitive) takes the instrumental as in "aš noriu būti gydytoju", what process of being a doctor is at stake -- simply existence, rather being a doctor? Is being a doctor a means for me just "to be"?

John Peters


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 Post subject: Re: Speaking of genitives after verbs
PostPosted: 2007 04 05, 15:35 
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jrpeters wrote:
OK, how about this sentence I recently read: Aš noriu būti gydytoju. Why isn't the verb "to be" here followed by the nominative, gydytojas? Perhaps it is incorrect?

John Peters


Dear John, i think you have noticed a very subtle mistake here, which is even tough for lithuanians themselves. the verb "to be" DOES require nominative, while used to make a statement about smth permanent.

for example, there is a difference between:
1. Aš noriu būti gydytojAS= I want to be a doctor.
(You want to become and remain a doctor, you want it to be your profession- permanent)
2. Aš noriu būti gydytoju= I want to be a doctor.
(You want to be a doctor for a while, for example, to work as a doctor at a camp for a couple weeks, even though its not your profession - temporal)

Lietuviškai:
Su žodžiu būti daiktavardis vartojamas vardininku, kai reiškiama pastovi, nuolatinė būsena (pvz.: Jis yra mokytojas.); įnagininku, kai reiškiama ne nuolatinė būsena (pvz.: Karnavale jis buvo karaliumi).
Na, čia nežymi riba, tačiau manau, kad kalbant apie profesiją turėtų būti vartojamas vardininkas.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 2007 04 05, 15:58 

Joined: 2007 03 14, 19:46
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Ah, tYnka, you have at last teased out a bit of logic for me from what looked like a tangled mess of grammar :D, impossible to learn, only to memorize.

Ačiū.


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 Post subject: Re: 9 buteliai alaus, ir 10 buteliai alaus....
PostPosted: 2007 04 05, 16:55 
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jrpeters wrote:

The "transitive" verbs you use to illustrate the different emphasis on object versus process is neat 8) , but when the "rules" say that the verb "buti" (at least the infinitive) takes the instrumental as in "aš noriu būti gydytoju", what process of being a doctor is at stake -- simply existence, rather being a doctor? Is being a doctor a means for me just "to be"?

John Peters


what does "at stake" mean? :lol:

i think the answer is, the process of being a doctor, not just of existance- if i understood the question adequately :roll:


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 2007 04 05, 20:44 

Joined: 2007 03 14, 19:46
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Location: Annandale, VA - USA
tYnka,

It looks like I finally hit an English idiom you are not familiar with:!: (where and how did you acquire such knowledge of both LT and ENG, both difficult languages?

The phrase "at stake" means "involved" or "pertinent" or "relevant." It probably comes from the language about burning heretics "at the stake," i.e., the wooden post to which victims were bound before burning. The phrase "at stake" would mean to be at hand, important to the matter involved -- though not so important as actually burning someone alive. :?

Thanks for all your help on this.

John Peters


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 2007 04 05, 21:56 
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jrpeters, you made me laugh for sure :lol: well, Lithuanian is my native, so i must know it well (still... there are some things that i don't know perfectly yet :roll: :lol: ). And what about English.. Even though it is not a difficult language, i have to improve it a lot.

And speaking of my help.. well, nėra už ką, man visada malonu padėti. It's just i'm kinda afraid to say smth that is not really correct. I strongly believe one has to know the rules perfect before explaining them to other people. BUt ..oh well... everybody make mistakes, so let it be :lol:


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 2007 04 05, 22:20 
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In reference to the "Aš noriu būti gydytoju"


Norėti - ko
Būti - kas


so which takes precedence over the other...

Norėti is supposed to be with ko, but buti with kas, so which does the noun end up being?


pvz, I want to eat food.... Is this Aš noriu valgyti maistO, or maistĄ?

Norėti - ko
valgyti - ką


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 2007 04 06, 13:27 
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Būti - kuo (mama, tėčiu, valytoju, mokytoju, vaistininku, sargu, policininku).

Norėti - ko (sausainio, saldainio, meilės, mašinos,buto, namo)

kas - daktaras (noun, nom. case), sargas, laivas, mama, tėvas, sausainis...

Not: noriu sausainis, but noriu sausainio (i want a biscuit)


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PostPosted: 2007 04 06, 15:27 
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I refrained to participate in your discussion for some time, so I could think about this more and give a definite answer :). Now I think I have it.

Firstly, būti, as Kristina said, takes not just kas, but also kuo, if it indicates a temporal being. Kuo is also used when talking about what profession you would like to take (aš noriu būti policininku - I want to be a policeman). But if you already have this profession, then you use kas (aš esu policininkas - I am a policeman).

To answer the question of Vaicaitis, when you have two verbs one after the other, the precedence belongs to the latter:

aš noriu būti policininku (būti + kuo)
aš noriu valgyti maistą (valgyti + ką)

But! You can say aš noriu valgyti maisto when you mean some food. Valgyti here takes the genitive/partitive case (ko). We talked about this in another topic (namely this one: ko ir ką).


Secondly, let's clearify the žavėtis problem. Notice that it is a reflexive verb. It is made from žavėti (to charm). And žavėti takes the accusative case :!:.

Jis mane žavi. He charms me.
Katės žavi žmones. Cats charm people.

When you convert accusative (transitive) verbs into reflexive, you must use them with the instrumental case then.

Jis naudoja plaktuką. He uses a hammer. [transitive]
Jis naudojasi plaktuku. He uses a hammer (for himself).

But usually you can't make accusative verbs into reflexives that take instrumental. When you convert verbs into reflexive they usually gain another meaning and don't take instrumental.


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PostPosted: 2007 04 06, 18:33 
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So whenever you have a verb in the reflexive which has the same meaning to its non-reflexive pair, it takes the instrumental?

And, what is a transitive verb?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 2007 04 06, 21:54 
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Answer to jrpeters:
I have found this in one small book by Dalija Tekorienė "Lithuanian Basic grammar and conversation".

Toward kas, kuo....

"The trouble is you do not know how to decline the nouns of pronouns. To learn the declension of Lithuanian nouns is not very easy, for there are seven cases both in the singular and plural.
Nominative answers to the question what? who?
Genitive ..... of what? whose?
Dative.......to what? to whom?
Accusative .......what? whom?
Instrumental .....by/with what/ who?
Locative.....in what? where?
Vocative is used addressing a person directly.

But please don't lose heart, we shall try to make it as simple as possible."

Usually semantic case is instrumental, that is required to use only according to the sintactic.
Example: predictably used noun with a verb usually can get only instrumental, but not nominative case.
for example: būti (verb - to be) + gydytojas (noun - a doctor)

Malonu būti rašytoju (*rašytojas-nom.). Norėčiau būti gydytoju (*gydytojas - nom.)

I hope its getting clear... :roll: :oops:


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 2007 04 07, 03:14 
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A transitive verb is a verb that takes a direct object.
Ex. John sees the man. (See is a transitive verb here.)

A verb that does not take a direct object is called intransitive.
Ex. John sleeps until eight in the morning. (Sleep is intransitive.)

In Lithuanian, the instrumental case can be used to express the process of becoming. It can be used, for example, with tapti.
Demonas žiauriai šaukė, ir tapo akmeniu. The demon shouted fiercely and became (as) a stone.

Būti + instrumental is similar, it involves expressing a change of state.
Aš noriu būti policininku. - I want to be (as) a policeman.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 2007 04 07, 08:25 
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ascii wrote:
So whenever you have a verb in the reflexive which has the same meaning to its non-reflexive pair, it takes the instrumental?
Usually not.
Pigmalijonas wrote:
When you convert accusative (transitive) verbs into reflexive, you must use them with the instrumental case then.

Jis naudoja plaktuką. He uses a hammer. [transitive]
Jis naudojasi plaktuku. He uses a hammer (for himself).

But usually you can't make accusative verbs into reflexives that take instrumental. When you convert verbs into reflexive they usually gain another meaning and don't take instrumental.


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