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 Post subject: gerundive dalyvis /Participle of necessity
PostPosted: 2010 03 30, 22:43 
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In Mt 2,4 (Mt 2:4) the greek reads
he inquired from them where the Christ would/might be born.
the 1998 Lithuanian bible reads
ir teiravosi, kur turėjęs gimti Mesijas.
= and he inquired where the Messiah has to be born
which seems a little dynamic, but participle there in Greek is a perfect aspect past tense passive participle in the subjunctive voice which should give:
jis teiravosi iš jų kur Kristus pagimdytinas. [using the gerundive] or:
jis teiravosi iš jų kur Kristus pagimdysimas. [using the future]
Does the gerundive dalyvis have the subjunctive voice? Could it be called the subjunctive participle?


Last edited by rinkevichjm on 2010 03 31, 07:43, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 2010 03 31, 02:56 
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Can you write the greek version?

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PostPosted: 2010 03 31, 07:42 
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asCii wrote:
Can you write the greek version?

Its Mt 2:4
in parsed transliterated Greek (which can be used at Perseus) with Strong's numbers for the Wescott-Horst/NA27 and Pierpoint-Robinson texts (i.e. there aren't major variants in the text). ( I'm bracketing the part not in question)
2:4 [kai 2532 {CONJ} sunagagwn 4863 5631 {V-2AAP-NSM} pantav 3956 {A-APM} touv 3588 {T-APM} arciereiv 749 {N-APM} kai 2532 {CONJ} grammateiv 1122 {N-APM} tou 3588 {T-GSM} laou 2992 {N-GSM} ] epunyaneto 4441 5711 {V-INI-3S} par 3844 {PREP} autwn 846 {P-GPM} pou 4226 {ADV-I} o 3588 {T-NSM} cristov 5547 {N-NSM} gennatai 1080 5747 {V-PPS-3S}
The Clementine Latin follow this very closely with
2:4 [Et congregans omnes principes sacerdotum, et scribas populi,] sciscitabatur ab eis ubi Christus nasceretur.
(Nore that nascertur is a Present Active Subjunctive in Latin) Oh looks like I made another mistake in the previous post the Greek is a Present Passive Participle (I wish the coding was different: R is peRfect) The reason the voice is different is because the Latin verb is passive/intransitive).
but the 1998 RK translation at biblija.lt has
4 [Jis susikvietė visus tautos aukštuosius kunigus bei Rašto aiškintojus ir] teiravosi, kur turėjęs gimti Mesijas.
I think that this could be translated with the future passive participle or with the participle of necessity for gimdyti. Oh now I see that gimti can't be form a passive.
Otherwise I think the translation should be (1) "kur būtų Kristus gimąs" or (2) "kur gimtų Kristus" but I'm wondering if it could be (3)"kur Kristus gimdytinas" or (4)"kur Kristus gymdysimas"
The variation in meaning is very slight
(1) where may the Christ be born?
(2) where the Christ may be born?
(3) where the Christ ought/needs to be delivered/raised?
(4) where the Christ will(UK: shall) be delivered/raised?
but the Lithuanian bible text is
where the Messiah (having) had to be born?
the translation Mesijas for Gr:Christon shows how loose the translation is. I think it is well known that Lithuanian borrowed Kristus from Greek (probably via Polish, Church-Slavic, or Latin)


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PostPosted: 2010 04 09, 16:26 
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Ištrauka iš Z. Zinkevičiaus Lietuvių kalbos istorinės gramatikos II dalis (1981):

§ 630. [...] turime reikiamybės dalyvius [...] Šie dalyviai turi infinityvo kamienus, pailgintus priesaga -tinŏ- (f. -tinā-), pvz., rašý-tinas (: rašýti) [...]
Priesagos -tinŏ- kilmė ne visų tyrinėtojų vienodai aiškinama. Vieni mano, kad ji esanti sudėtinė, iš -tŏ- ir -inŏ-. Tuo atveju reikiamybės dalyvius galima būtų traktuoti kaip būtojo laiko neveikiamuosius dalyvius, kurių priesaga -tŏ- pailginta -inŏ- (sutraukta į -tinŏ-), plg. rašý-ta-s ir rašý-tina-s. Kiti tyrinėtojai -tinŏ- kildina iš ide. *-tṇno- (nykstamasis -tenŏ- laipsnis) ir sieja su graikų -τανος, pvz., θεπτανος = lie. dègtinas.[...]

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PostPosted: 2010 04 17, 18:37 
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asCii wrote:
Ištrauka iš Z. Zinkevičiaus Lietuvių kalbos istorinės gramatikos II dalis (1981):

§ 630. [...] turime reikiamybės dalyvius [...] Šie dalyviai turi infinityvo kamienus, pailgintus priesaga -tinŏ- (f. -tinā-), pvz., rašý-tinas (: rašýti) [...]
Priesagos -tinŏ- kilmė ne visų tyrinėtojų vienodai aiškinama. Vieni mano, kad ji esanti sudėtinė, iš -tŏ- ir -inŏ-. Tuo atveju reikiamybės dalyvius galima būtų traktuoti kaip būtojo laiko neveikiamuosius dalyvius, kurių priesaga -tŏ- pailginta -inŏ- (sutraukta į -tinŏ-), plg. rašý-ta-s ir rašý-tina-s. Kiti tyrinėtojai -tinŏ- kildina iš ide. *-tṇno- (nykstamasis -tenŏ- laipsnis) ir sieja su graikų -τανος, pvz., θεπτανος = lie. dègtinas.[...]

Translated I get:
-----------------------------------------------
§ 630 [...] We take the participles of necessity [...] These participles have infinitive strains, inflected suffix -tino (f-tina), e.g., rašy-tina (: rašti) [...]
Suffix -tino not all researchers of word origin have the same intepretations. Some believe that it contained part of -to and -ino. The case of the participles of necessity could be regarded as a past tense non-active voice participles with the suffix -to extended by -ino (contracted to -tino), cf. rašy-ta-s and rašy-tina-s. Other researchers of -tino, say it derives from the PIE. *-tṇno-(the disappearaance of the -teno- degree) and possession of a Greek-τανος, e.g., Θεπτανος = Lt. distillate [...]
--------------------------------------------------
Interesting ...
LSJ for Θεπτανος gives degtinė as its Lt cognate and the meaning of that as brandy.


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PostPosted: 2010 04 19, 20:59 
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I don't know what LJS is, but that translation might be from current greek.

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PostPosted: 2010 04 25, 03:29 
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asCii wrote:
I don't know what LJS is, but that translation might be from current greek.


The LSJ is the larger Liddel-Jones-Scott Greek lexicon, that was originally done at Oxford. The wikipedia has an entry on it at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Greek-English_Lexicon


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PostPosted: 2010 04 25, 09:56 
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Oh yeah, I know it, sure. I just didn't recognize the acronym :)

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