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 Post subject: Savo and mano
PostPosted: 2006 11 19, 01:03 
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What is the difference between those? I'm asking this here because I couldn't find the answer in the site. It really called my atention, because I think savo is a personal pronoun, and they are listed in the grammar section :?


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PostPosted: 2006 11 19, 02:54 
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Savo is a reflexive pronoun, refer to the quote below:

Personal pronouns are united with the reflexive pronoun, which has no nominative case, no plural or dual number, and can be used only in the certain type of sentences shown below. The reflexive pronoun has:
Gen. savęs
Dat. sau
Acc. save
Instr. savimi
Loc. savyje

Example: Papasakok apie save! - Tell about yourself!
Mes pakvietėme draugą, su savimi - We invited a friend with us (lit. "with selves": "we" can be used only once in such a sentence so it requires the rexlexive pronoun)

Also the possessive pronouns can be referred to as personal ones. In Proto-Indo-European and in all ancient Indo-European languages possessives were declined like 1st class adjectives. Such situation still exists somehow in French, Russian, German, most of Slavic languages. Even in Old Prussian there was a declension. But in Lithuanian a step to analytization (maybe the only one in the whole language) was made, and nowadays possessive pronouns are not declined and have only one form, like English "my", "his" or "their". Lithuanian look the following way:

mano - my
tavo - your (sg.)
savo - a reflexive one (Duok man savo telefono numerį, - Give me your telephone number)
jo - his, its (masc.)
jos - her, its (fem.)
mūsų, - our
jūsų, - your (pl.)
jų, - their

One can notice that some possessive forms are analogues of genitive singular of corresponding personal pronouns. That's true, because meanings of possessive pronouns is just genitive of personal ones. E.g. Whose is that jacket? It is George's jacket (genitive). It is his jacket (possessive). It's a common feature in many languages, not only Indo-European. Altaic languages do not have possessives at all, using genitive forms instead.
(see http://indoeuro.bizland.com/project/gra ... mar12.html) with thanks to author

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Tiktai mūsų meilėj — tu didžiulė.
Mūsų delnuose — tu nesudeginama.
Mūsų ilgesy — brangiausia pasaka.
Mūsų akyse tu — saulės kraštas.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 2006 11 19, 18:28 
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Than you, after reading it I understood everything, but I think there are some things that should be analyzed (tell me if I am right):
To begin with it says that reflexives have no nominative but the dictionary (lietuviu-anglu.com) says it does.
Secondly, I was told by a lithuanian speaker this:
Quote:
Kalbu su savo draugu. - I am talking with a friend of mine.

Then the example given by Varnas
Quote:
Papasakok apie save! - Tell about yourself!

I think the problem here lies in the translation because the words myself and yourself have different meaning. So savas can't mean both. If it did then, it would be imposible to translate a sentence as the ambiguity may arise. See that for yourself. It is not the same to say friends of yourself (leaving aside gramatical errors) than to say friends of mine.
As the dictionary (lietuviu-anglu.com) says
Quote:
savas: one's own
then the literal translation of the 1º sentence and 2º must be:
I am talking with a friend of oneself.
Tell about oneself.
That way while the sentences keep their meaning, the word has one meaning.

As I said at the begining, please tell me if my deduction if right. I'm no erudite, I'm just trying to learn.


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PostPosted: 2006 11 21, 17:41 
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Varnas filled you with some hard information there :). Let me try to explain this in easy terms.

You already know the simple possesive pronouns like mano, tavo, jo, mūsų, jūsų, jų (my, your, his, our, your, their). You use them like in English:

Čia yra mano pieštukas. This is my pencil.
Turiu tavo pieštuką. I have your pencil.
Mes mėgstame jo brolį. We like his brother.

Notice that here the subject is different than the object. turiu tavo pieštuką. Mes mėgstame jo brolį.

If you want to speak about an object of yours, you use the reflexive pronoun (savo). In other words, you use it when the person of the object matches the person of the subject:

Turiu savo pieštuką. I have my pencil.
Mes mėgstame savo brolį. We like our brother.
Duok man savo pieštuką. Give me your pencil. [2nd person imperative - you]

You see that in English and in many other languages they use the same pronouns as the subject is.

Ar pakankamai aišku? Was that clear enough?


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PostPosted: 2006 11 21, 19:46 
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Great. Understood. Except for this:

Mes mėgstame savo brolį. We like our brother.

Isn't it correct to say: Mėgstame savo brolį.


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 Post subject: c v
PostPosted: 2006 11 22, 11:30 
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It's correct to say either "mes mėgstame savo brolį" or " mėgstame savo brolį", whichever u want.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 2006 11 22, 11:53 
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Aišku.
What about sentences like: "I like my house", where we don't have aš?
Is it correct to say it both ways?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 2006 11 22, 12:24 
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Personal pronouns (aš, tu, jis, ji, mes, jūs, jie, jos) are optional.

I like my house:
Aš mėgstu savo namą.
Mėgstu savo namą.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 2006 11 22, 13:50 
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As I've got some time in my hands, I'll make you an exercise.

Labas! (My) vardas yra Rodrigas. Aš mėgstu (my) namą, bet man nepatinka (my) draugo namas. (His) namas yra per didelis, todėl man nepatinka. Šalia (my) namo yra (my) mokykla. Mes joje mokomės. Mes mylime (our) mokyklą. Mokykla myli (its) mokinius.

:lol: This is the kind of exercises that I'm due to prepare for the mini lessons :). Change the pronouns from English into Lithuanian, write your answers here and I will correct you :).


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 2006 11 22, 20:28 
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Deleted so others can do it

Ok, I did it... but I'm sure it's all wrong. :oops: :oops: :oops:

Btw, great excercise!!!:D :D


Last edited by asCii on 2006 11 23, 21:20, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: very good
PostPosted: 2006 11 22, 21:21 
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It's entirely said properly, but there should be JO instead of jis.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 2006 11 23, 21:04 
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atsakymas turėtų būti siunčiamas PM, kad ir kiti galėtų padaryti šį pratimėlį...

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 2006 11 23, 21:18 
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Hey I was refering to Man patinka.. not to Aš mėgstu. Can I say Man patinka savo namas? Or is it wrong because it doesn't have Aš?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 2006 11 23, 21:21 
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We are saying: Man patinka mano namas.
Yes, you should be right - it hasn't

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Čia Lietuva, čia lietūs lyja, čia kiekvienam širdis atgyja; gal ji maža, bet ji - Tėvynė, man ji pirma ir paskutinė...


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 2006 12 25, 15:35 

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As far as I know there's an exception — Man patinka vaikščioti su savo broliu. There's still no aš in nominative case but savo is still appropriate and therefore required (just because of „su“).

Ar teisingai?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 2006 12 25, 16:44 
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Teisingai, Sergėjau, but not completely. It's not because of 'su'.

Man patinka mano namas. (My house appeals to me.)
Man patinka puošti savo namą. (Decoring my house appeals to me.)

Man patinka mano brolis. (My brother appeals to me.)
Man patinka mušti savo brolį. (Beating my brother appeals to me.)

So it's savo when another verb is included!

But there's an exception with reikėti:

Man reikia mano brolio.
Man reikia savo brolio.
Man reikia paskambinti savo broliui. (I need to call my brother.)


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PostPosted: 2007 04 11, 05:23 
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Labas! mano vardas yra Bretas. Aš mėgstu savo namą, bet man nepatinka savo draugo namas. Jo namas yra per didelis, todėl man nepatinka. Šalia mano namo yra savo mokykla. Mes joje mokomės. Mes mylime savo mokyklą. Mokykla myli savo mokinius.

how's that?


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PostPosted: 2007 04 11, 05:36 
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I'm taking the liberty of correcting what you've said.

Man nepatinka mano draugo namas. Šalia mano namo yra mano mokykla.

You don't use savo there because the subject of the 1º one is "mano draugo namas", not "man". And in the second one it is the same, the subject of the sentence is not Aš.




Neužmušk mane (=manęs)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 2007 04 11, 05:59 
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ah i see, thanks ascii :D


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 Post subject: reflexive in relative clauses
PostPosted: 2007 05 08, 07:31 
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Is the reflexive used in a subordinate clause to refer to the subject of the main clause? For example:

jie išmiega (=jei miega) savo lovoje, tepakloja jis ją.
if he lays in his bed, let him make it.

':?:'


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PostPosted: 2007 05 18, 12:16 
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Yes.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 2007 05 30, 22:25 
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I'm still not sure how this works in a phrase like:

Aš ir (mano?/savo?) brolis...

Labai ačiū :)


(Labas draugai, aš esu sugrįžusi (??) :D)

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 2007 05 30, 22:29 
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"Aš ir mano ..."

Because if you used savo you would enter in an "endless loop" (???) Hehe.
What I mean is that as savo refers to the subject of the sentence if you used it inside the subject it would mean something like "Aš ir aš ir aš ir aš ir aš ir aš ir aš ir aš..."


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PostPosted: 2007 05 30, 22:31 
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Awww, right, I understand that. It's logical. And it's the same rule in Icelandic ;) so I should remember it.
Thanks a lot!

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 2008 07 24, 21:25 
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What about?

Tau patinka tavo namas. (Your house appeals to you.)
Tau patinka puošti savo namą. (Decoring your house appeals to you.)

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